Well considering the lenghts fanatics go to to isolate their amps from vibration, I reccon a fan is not the way to go....and I guess even watercooling would add quite a bit of vibration due to the flow of liquid in the pipes....
I tried using a fan with my first GC, gave up eventualy as I could always tell by the sound if the fan was on.
I tried using a fan with my first GC, gave up eventualy as I could always tell by the sound if the fan was on.
look at the design of arctic cooling brand cpu coolers, particuarly the one designed for the athlon64 bit chips. It(among others) mount the fan with rubber grommet peices to isolate vibration. Look around on sites like silent-pc for links to makers of vibration isolating grommets and the like.
That it will. Keep in mind the cfm airflow at full speed as it relates to how much cooling you need though. Slow it down by too much and you won't get enough airflow to do the job.
Also keep in mind that different fans are better made(and thus quieter) than others. for pc use 30db is considered somewhat high but is still not very noticable. 25 is fairly low, and 20-23 is very low.
Also keep in mind that different fans are better made(and thus quieter) than others. for pc use 30db is considered somewhat high but is still not very noticable. 25 is fairly low, and 20-23 is very low.
generally they are. There are also ceramic and even better, maglev fans on the market.
IMHO the best fans around are made by a company called acousti-fan. They ring in at 21db and 25cfm of air for the 80mm size(standard pc case fan size).
They also have another series of fan that pushes 20cfm at a virtually silent 15db.
IMHO the best fans around are made by a company called acousti-fan. They ring in at 21db and 25cfm of air for the 80mm size(standard pc case fan size).
They also have another series of fan that pushes 20cfm at a virtually silent 15db.
Much misleading infos accumulating.
Note that Nordic wrote "lengths FANATICS go to to isolate their amps". Tubes are very important to isolate. Earthquakes are too. The amp builder that puts cone feet on an amp for any reason other than it's looks, is 100% delusional about it helping reduce vibrations. It has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this does not reduce vibrations at all. Now, "IF" those cone feet were set atop a softer surface like rubber, or maybe unfinished pine, balsa, etc, to the extent that the surface under the cone points was significantly flexing, it would then help. Problem is, seldom is this done in conjunction, instead they are used as if magic bullets on regular hard surfaces. Not that it's a good practice to have excessive vibrations in any gear, but it is relative.
Acrtic Cooling has to use isolators because they use such crap fans. Reducing fan vibration is, first and foremost, always choosing a well balanced fan. In particular some things increase the odds of that- choosing a top name brand, not a thin fan (over 15mm thick), and not one of those very rigid frames (like the clear LED types). Running the fan at the optimal (lowest reliable) voltage does a LOT to further reduce any minor vibrations that remain though they might not have been significant enough already.
One need not keep in mind the cfm airflow, quite the opposite. You WANT to slow it down the maximum amount possible. These are not CPUs, they don't have 100W/cm² and only making a poor choice of heatsink (metal portion) or fan (too small/thin) will require unduely raising the RPM. 30db of actual noise is not so noticable, but a fan rated as 30db is rated as such in "free air", not implemented in a chassis where turbulence has a very significant noise production.
For our uses, there are very very few (if any) fans that start out with low enough noise levels. A fan rated as 22db free air, will be too loud for most discriminating listeners and needs voltage or current reduction towards that end.
Ball bearing fans are not quieter. There are some very poor quality sleeve bearing fans that wear down fast from their bearing and lack of lubrication but considering only good quality fans (all else equal except the bearing type), sleeve bearing fans are quieter. There are so few though that are very good, most will require lubrication every few years, less often with lower RPM.
Ceramic and maglev are just marketing tricks. No better than good quality fans, perhaps better than the lowest quality fans but that's not a quality level one wants to compete in. Their designs are meant to maximize profit, not result in a good fan.
Fan tech has been mature for over 50 years with minor exceptions such as synthetic lubricants, lower noise ICs, and better metal fabrication for the balls & races. There is no new special fan that is as good as a top brand (hence why they are the top brands) of majar fan manufacturer's products, not fan relabelers who just throw their own label on and hype marketing buzzwords.
Note that Nordic wrote "lengths FANATICS go to to isolate their amps". Tubes are very important to isolate. Earthquakes are too. The amp builder that puts cone feet on an amp for any reason other than it's looks, is 100% delusional about it helping reduce vibrations. It has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this does not reduce vibrations at all. Now, "IF" those cone feet were set atop a softer surface like rubber, or maybe unfinished pine, balsa, etc, to the extent that the surface under the cone points was significantly flexing, it would then help. Problem is, seldom is this done in conjunction, instead they are used as if magic bullets on regular hard surfaces. Not that it's a good practice to have excessive vibrations in any gear, but it is relative.
Acrtic Cooling has to use isolators because they use such crap fans. Reducing fan vibration is, first and foremost, always choosing a well balanced fan. In particular some things increase the odds of that- choosing a top name brand, not a thin fan (over 15mm thick), and not one of those very rigid frames (like the clear LED types). Running the fan at the optimal (lowest reliable) voltage does a LOT to further reduce any minor vibrations that remain though they might not have been significant enough already.
One need not keep in mind the cfm airflow, quite the opposite. You WANT to slow it down the maximum amount possible. These are not CPUs, they don't have 100W/cm² and only making a poor choice of heatsink (metal portion) or fan (too small/thin) will require unduely raising the RPM. 30db of actual noise is not so noticable, but a fan rated as 30db is rated as such in "free air", not implemented in a chassis where turbulence has a very significant noise production.
For our uses, there are very very few (if any) fans that start out with low enough noise levels. A fan rated as 22db free air, will be too loud for most discriminating listeners and needs voltage or current reduction towards that end.
Ball bearing fans are not quieter. There are some very poor quality sleeve bearing fans that wear down fast from their bearing and lack of lubrication but considering only good quality fans (all else equal except the bearing type), sleeve bearing fans are quieter. There are so few though that are very good, most will require lubrication every few years, less often with lower RPM.
Ceramic and maglev are just marketing tricks. No better than good quality fans, perhaps better than the lowest quality fans but that's not a quality level one wants to compete in. Their designs are meant to maximize profit, not result in a good fan.
Fan tech has been mature for over 50 years with minor exceptions such as synthetic lubricants, lower noise ICs, and better metal fabrication for the balls & races. There is no new special fan that is as good as a top brand (hence why they are the top brands) of majar fan manufacturer's products, not fan relabelers who just throw their own label on and hype marketing buzzwords.
What matters is the quality of the bearings the resulting airflow and noise levels.
AC does not use S*$@ fans. Do you have experiece with them personally? I own multiple cpu AND gpu coolers from them and they run wonderfuly and quietly. They use the rubber mountings to reduce extra vibration. Mabye thats why I can't hear it running. As a matter of fact their gpu's are incredible. Their bearings are some of the smoothest i've seen.
the thing is that in my experience its mostly good quality fans that are using ball bearing fans, and decent quality, but cheaper fans using sleve fans.
Another reason why I recommended acousti-fan is that they not only include a connector with a resistor to cut the voltage, but they also have a thermocouple to further reduce fan speeds when they are not needed.
AC does not use S*$@ fans. Do you have experiece with them personally? I own multiple cpu AND gpu coolers from them and they run wonderfuly and quietly. They use the rubber mountings to reduce extra vibration. Mabye thats why I can't hear it running. As a matter of fact their gpu's are incredible. Their bearings are some of the smoothest i've seen.
the thing is that in my experience its mostly good quality fans that are using ball bearing fans, and decent quality, but cheaper fans using sleve fans.
Another reason why I recommended acousti-fan is that they not only include a connector with a resistor to cut the voltage, but they also have a thermocouple to further reduce fan speeds when they are not needed.
lbreevesii said:
Yes I do, and no they are not good fans. Average, perhaps. Even their MTBF ratings are lower than any decent brand. You write about quality of bearings but there's nothing about their bearing particularly noteworthy, they're just commodity grade fans.
They can run fine when new- just as any cheap fan can. Remember that this particular use (chipamps) is not same thing as CPU cooling since a CPU will be technologically old in a few years but a good amp should be expected to have a lifespan of a few decades. Even so, better quality fans than the AC are expected to last over 1 decade easily, but theirs, maybe 4 years if you're lucky. They have a warranty for 6 years on some but they are taking advantage of something with it- that not a lot of people are going to pay as much shipping and the time to replace one fan under warranty when a new fan can be delivered for near same cost and no time spent on it.
Nonsense, there is absolutely nothing different about their bearings. That "extra vibration" is due to their poor balance. Take off the rubber and run that fan at same RPM as a better quality fan and you'll see for yourself that it is true. AC sells an "image" of low noise, and takes median quality fans then runs them at low RPM. That's fine really, it'll work but better to just use a good quality fan at low RPM instead and it will be quieter and longer lasting as even AC admit when they publish lower MTBF ratings for their product.
Often true, except that there are some quality sleeve bearing fans too, particularly those by Papst, Panaflo, (a few) Sunons, Comair. Far too many sleeve bearing fans were just cheaper to make though, and guess what? Some of AC's fans are those cheap sleeve bearing fans.
The key is to start out with the BEST quality fan instead. Anything else is just going to cause more problems in the long run. Further, even with the fans having inline resistor and thermal control, it's threshold/response is too high for a chipamp. Lower heat density and ability to use a larger heatsink in the chipamp means a lower fan RPM is possible.
I just remembered that I promised pictures of what I was using so that we could all be on the same page. Here is a picture of one of the heatsinks I use in front of my laptop and with a coin for size comparison. I use one of these per chip and I haven't had any problems so far.
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Here is what I do to them before I mount them on the chips! 
(different sink)
[edit] Forgot to mention that these will probably be lapped pretty well before use just cause I always do that sort of thing. Not that it will really make a difference since I have to use insulation pads anyway. . . [/quote]
(different sink)[edit] Forgot to mention that these will probably be lapped pretty well before use just cause I always do that sort of thing. Not that it will really make a difference since I have to use insulation pads anyway. . .
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Here is the latest batch that I have prepped for future use. The big one will probably use 2 chips in a stereo amp. The holes were pre-drilled for mounting to the CPU, but the are spaced and sized perfectly to mount two of my Linkwitz Lm3886 boards. I was thinking of making an iPod amp, and this would be perfect.
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lbreevesii said:
I have an AC graphics card cooler. It is actually fairly noisy compared to the rest of my case and makes a distinctive whirring sound. Of late the bearings have started to go, and i have only had it for about 3 months, the next video card i get will hopefully have passive cooling.
noodle_snacks said:
you might be able to quiet it some by lubing it, and if the case is well ventilated, reducing it's RPM some but of course then temp measurements of the card are evermore important.
dfdye said:
Choosing the appropriate heatsink can vary per application. If your amp stays cool enough, great. That 'sink is not big enough for the maximum possible output of a (LM3886 for example) chipamp. It is not necessary to design for max power and certainly nobody is compelling you to go deaf listening to one at that level, but the size 'sink that works for one person may be not enough or the opposite, overkill for someone else.
The spec sheet or app notes (I forget which) for LM3886 or Overture amps lists some possible output levels, and they reach a few dozen watts and specify heatsink C/W ratings which are lower (better) than the 'sink you show, enough different that I don't need to know the exact 'sink spec because it's not even close to their recommendations... but again, their recommendations are going to be for max possible heat at rated wattages of the chips which the amp may not even physically be able to produce in a given configuration even if cranked up 1/3 volume continually which it probably isn't.
Hello, I have been using ventilators for a long time on lots of amps with a very simple way to control them. All it takes is a chipamp like a TDA 2003 and a few resistors , a Diode and a capcitor of 100 uf. one of the resistors adjustable . the chipamp takes its signal from the amps output, the adjustable resistor is the " volume " and the diode and capacitor rectify the output to drive the ventilsator. Which follows the output , that is , the average volume of the sound, very nicely if correctly adjusted, rail voltage has to be taken into account. Cheap , simple and effectively inaudible.
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