ok.... how do i put this nicely...... you're in over your head, and i think you've already drowned...... it would have been better if you had asked your question first before tearing your receiver apart and cutting wires indiscriminately. my first piece of advice to you would have been to try a reset. tearing out your standby supply wasn't the answer. yes there is some evidence of some heating on the back of that board, but not necessarily from anything burning out. obviously, you get power and display and some functionality (or at least you did) the red paint is so they can tell whether anybody has replaced any parts and voided the warranty. there are other power supplies in the unit, and the one you took out was working fine if you had lights, power and sound. if you have sound in pure direct you have some DSP functionality...... this is one case where i'm going to say this as nicely as possible..... put everything back together and take it to someone who knows how to repair it. if they charge you an arm and a leg, don't complain. after all you ARE an HR guy, and you know you should pay people for their expertise in their particular field. you don't hire an HR guy to fix DSP problems, and you don't hire techs or engineers to fix HR problems. if you are asking whether the pictures you've shown have much to do with the problem you're having, i have to say, you're getting colder...........
over my head
I did do a reset several times. thanks for your advice. by any chance does this standy power board provide any power to the DSP unit? What is the purpose of this board and what does it do? The power comes in here from the mains, goes to the 3 aux ac inputs and more...i should try to have this board tested at the very least and if it's not a problem then put it back together. that's easy to do (to put it back) I labeled every screw I pulled. thanks.
I did do a reset several times. thanks for your advice. by any chance does this standy power board provide any power to the DSP unit? What is the purpose of this board and what does it do? The power comes in here from the mains, goes to the 3 aux ac inputs and more...i should try to have this board tested at the very least and if it's not a problem then put it back together. that's easy to do (to put it back) I labeled every screw I pulled. thanks.
5805 main power
I don't know whether Gernot (heisenberg_2000) is still around,
but I thank you for your posts and unclejed613's replies.
I >>guess<< that the answer to Gernot's question is
that speaker protection is what would normally prevent the "main"
transformer relay from being enabled. However, I also guess
that, if speaker protection were invoke, there would either
be a message displayed and/or the light surrounding the "ON/STANDBY" button would blink.
It seems as if mute or headphone jack insertion
has been invoked..
The 5805 evidently has several stages of initialization
and protection interlocks, unfortunately undocumented (to us).
I do not share your respect for "the people of Denon."
The 5805 is put together poorly, with fuses hidden in
far too many places, and the service PDFs seem to
have been put together with more hostility than care.
Attached are 5805 troubleshooting notes that I have made, to date.
---=---
I have supposedly legitimate AVR-5805 service PDFs, but doubt that
Denon service center technicians could economically repair these receivers
without additional documentation; where are principles of operation?
Schematics for the most part lack operating voltages.
My 5805 stopped powering on; it gets stuck in a protection mode loop.
One relatively slow green blink is followed about a second later
by two quick green blinks, then cycles back to the first blink;
relay clicks accompanying blinks.
There was no shorted speaker connection to provoke this failure.
The 5805 was powered thru a Monster HTS3500 for power surge attunuation.
I recall that, when working, the AVR-5805 went thru several stages
of delays and clicks before ready to use. I suppose speaker short
detection would be a later intialization stage,
after verifying power supplies, etc.
>> Where are those sequences described? Are the blinks meaningful?
The power block diagram (page 29) shows two primary switches,
one feeding a main CPU transformer and another feeding 5 others.
That loosely corresponds with reality;
there is a small "power operation" button
which causes the surround on a larger button to illuminate orange.
The surround illumination turns green
when that larger button (vertical in schematic) is activated.
Not shown are relays after vertical switch before transformers
and outlets (presumably upper right box of page 29.).
Directly behind AC outlets are individual relays
(RL103-RL105, mounted on page 84 AC Outlet unit 1U-3639-6,
exploded view 6-6, schematic 17/61),
all sharing one fuse (F008, 8A/125V).
Directly above that is Rush-R unit 1U-3639-4 (exploded view 6-4)
with main fuse F001 (12A/125V) and relay RL101. I suspect that
this relay and fuse are dedicated to supplying power amplifiers..?
Above that, AC Inlet unit 1U-3639-5 (exploded view 6-5)
has fuse F003 and relays RL102 and RL106. The fuse is hard to
see and harder to access, behind power wiring wrapped on a ferrite core.
>> Removing F001 and F003 did not affect the power-on sequence.
I assume that some power supplies were not working.
Second Fuse Assu 3638-3 is partially obscured by the upper front
frame rail, to which the front panel is attached.
During the one of the two initialization sequences, AC voltages at
the accessible ends of those fuses measured: 10A 4.8V, 10A 0.4V
8A 0?, 8A 0?, 5A 0?, 2A 4.2 1.25A 8.2, 1.25A 8.2 3.15A 17.6 3.15A 17.6.
Of these, the 3.15A fuses were clearly associated with 15V supplies.
The two 10A fuses are connected at one end.
Reseating the one which had measured 0.4V restored it to 4.8V.
4.8VAC seems low for supplying 5VDC..
I have yet to find any obvious places for checking DC supply levels.
At any rate, after restoring the second 4.9=8V AC supply,
seeming useful voltage appeared at protection unit power transistors,
TR991 and TR992, but power-on clicks and blinks did not change.
8A fuses and 5A fuse are for video trans, presumably exploded ref 113.
I have yet to determine whether the video trans gets powered at the same time
as others or perhaps via a separate relay at a subsequent stage of
initialization which is being aborted for other reasons.
Many service manual pages are nominally 11.69x16.64 inches;
they are generally too hard to read when printed as 8.5x11 pages.
Foxit Reader has a snapshot tool which facilitates
selecting parts of these pages to print legibly.
However, I recommend first "printing" these as new PDFs by PDFCreator
to ensure they are actually cropped as desired.
Page 7 describes resetting the microcontroller, but unclearly;
for example, how many times should one see the display flash
before releasing STANDARD and HOME THX CINEMA buttons?
fuse-resistors are nominally denoted by FR;
lots of resistor part numbers contain FR..
page 121,178 lists 11 fuses F011-23; page 125,180 lists 3
page 169 lists power, regulation, fuse, protection units
page 206-8 has corresponding schematics
schematic difference table lists
p 112,117 RL101 RL201 RL301 RL401 RL501
p 125 RL101-6
p 132 RL401
p 136 RL201 RL202 RL203
p 141 RL 401
p 158 five relays RL101 RL102 RL201 RL202 RL403
p 163 30 relays (!)
p 178 11 fuses
p 180 3 fuses
p 181 RL104
lots of relays on video schematic (p245).
I don't know whether Gernot (heisenberg_2000) is still around,
but I thank you for your posts and unclejed613's replies.
I >>guess<< that the answer to Gernot's question is
that speaker protection is what would normally prevent the "main"
transformer relay from being enabled. However, I also guess
that, if speaker protection were invoke, there would either
be a message displayed and/or the light surrounding the "ON/STANDBY" button would blink.
It seems as if mute or headphone jack insertion
has been invoked..
The 5805 evidently has several stages of initialization
and protection interlocks, unfortunately undocumented (to us).
I do not share your respect for "the people of Denon."
The 5805 is put together poorly, with fuses hidden in
far too many places, and the service PDFs seem to
have been put together with more hostility than care.
Attached are 5805 troubleshooting notes that I have made, to date.
---=---
I have supposedly legitimate AVR-5805 service PDFs, but doubt that
Denon service center technicians could economically repair these receivers
without additional documentation; where are principles of operation?
Schematics for the most part lack operating voltages.
My 5805 stopped powering on; it gets stuck in a protection mode loop.
One relatively slow green blink is followed about a second later
by two quick green blinks, then cycles back to the first blink;
relay clicks accompanying blinks.
There was no shorted speaker connection to provoke this failure.
The 5805 was powered thru a Monster HTS3500 for power surge attunuation.
I recall that, when working, the AVR-5805 went thru several stages
of delays and clicks before ready to use. I suppose speaker short
detection would be a later intialization stage,
after verifying power supplies, etc.
>> Where are those sequences described? Are the blinks meaningful?
The power block diagram (page 29) shows two primary switches,
one feeding a main CPU transformer and another feeding 5 others.
That loosely corresponds with reality;
there is a small "power operation" button
which causes the surround on a larger button to illuminate orange.
The surround illumination turns green
when that larger button (vertical in schematic) is activated.
Not shown are relays after vertical switch before transformers
and outlets (presumably upper right box of page 29.).
Directly behind AC outlets are individual relays
(RL103-RL105, mounted on page 84 AC Outlet unit 1U-3639-6,
exploded view 6-6, schematic 17/61),
all sharing one fuse (F008, 8A/125V).
Directly above that is Rush-R unit 1U-3639-4 (exploded view 6-4)
with main fuse F001 (12A/125V) and relay RL101. I suspect that
this relay and fuse are dedicated to supplying power amplifiers..?
Above that, AC Inlet unit 1U-3639-5 (exploded view 6-5)
has fuse F003 and relays RL102 and RL106. The fuse is hard to
see and harder to access, behind power wiring wrapped on a ferrite core.
>> Removing F001 and F003 did not affect the power-on sequence.
I assume that some power supplies were not working.
Second Fuse Assu 3638-3 is partially obscured by the upper front
frame rail, to which the front panel is attached.
During the one of the two initialization sequences, AC voltages at
the accessible ends of those fuses measured: 10A 4.8V, 10A 0.4V
8A 0?, 8A 0?, 5A 0?, 2A 4.2 1.25A 8.2, 1.25A 8.2 3.15A 17.6 3.15A 17.6.
Of these, the 3.15A fuses were clearly associated with 15V supplies.
The two 10A fuses are connected at one end.
Reseating the one which had measured 0.4V restored it to 4.8V.
4.8VAC seems low for supplying 5VDC..
I have yet to find any obvious places for checking DC supply levels.
At any rate, after restoring the second 4.9=8V AC supply,
seeming useful voltage appeared at protection unit power transistors,
TR991 and TR992, but power-on clicks and blinks did not change.
8A fuses and 5A fuse are for video trans, presumably exploded ref 113.
I have yet to determine whether the video trans gets powered at the same time
as others or perhaps via a separate relay at a subsequent stage of
initialization which is being aborted for other reasons.
Many service manual pages are nominally 11.69x16.64 inches;
they are generally too hard to read when printed as 8.5x11 pages.
Foxit Reader has a snapshot tool which facilitates
selecting parts of these pages to print legibly.
However, I recommend first "printing" these as new PDFs by PDFCreator
to ensure they are actually cropped as desired.
Page 7 describes resetting the microcontroller, but unclearly;
for example, how many times should one see the display flash
before releasing STANDARD and HOME THX CINEMA buttons?
fuse-resistors are nominally denoted by FR;
lots of resistor part numbers contain FR..
page 121,178 lists 11 fuses F011-23; page 125,180 lists 3
page 169 lists power, regulation, fuse, protection units
page 206-8 has corresponding schematics
schematic difference table lists
p 112,117 RL101 RL201 RL301 RL401 RL501
p 125 RL101-6
p 132 RL401
p 136 RL201 RL202 RL203
p 141 RL 401
p 158 five relays RL101 RL102 RL201 RL202 RL403
p 163 30 relays (!)
p 178 11 fuses
p 180 3 fuses
p 181 RL104
lots of relays on video schematic (p245).
put your receiver back together. let me know when it's back together and i will help you troubleshoot it....
blekenbleu, rattling off a bunch of stuff and what page it's on doesn't help much without the manual you're talking about. for one thing Denon revises their manuals regularly, and things end up on different pages. the Denon start up process is fairly straightforward once you understand it. it won't be found in the dervice manual, since it's covered in their warranty service training. Denon's service documentation isn't well thought out, but i have seen much worse from other manufacturers (pioneer likes to reverse the pinouts of connectors from one board to the next)
blekenbleu, rattling off a bunch of stuff and what page it's on doesn't help much without the manual you're talking about. for one thing Denon revises their manuals regularly, and things end up on different pages. the Denon start up process is fairly straightforward once you understand it. it won't be found in the dervice manual, since it's covered in their warranty service training. Denon's service documentation isn't well thought out, but i have seen much worse from other manufacturers (pioneer likes to reverse the pinouts of connectors from one board to the next)
Thank you! You reduced my troubleshooting from weeks to minutes with that post.
Chalk up another 7815 regulator failure. This time on an AVR5803. Parts Express has the original part, but maybe repeating a behavior and expecting different results isn't wise.
Then, neither is repairing a failure w/o understanding the cause.
I haven't gotten the replacement yet, but the 7815 is definitely bad. Too much capacitance on VOut maybe? Most 7815 vendors want 10uf on Vout. That would be something that a cheap diode could permanently fix.
I replaced the 7815 (and the 7915 because I ordered one). I soldered a shunt diode to their Vouts to shunt excess capacitance to ground when the unit is powered-down v that current flowing back through Vout.
It might not do anything useful if that's not the cause, but it won't hurt anything either, and my 5803 is 1 gram heavier, and a bit less likely to float away in a breeze.
Reinstall is this evening. Denon sure made it difficult to get this board out/in.
If anyone from Denon reads this: the capacitance on the output of the two 15V regulators used in most of your AVRs is much higher than manufacturer spec (10uf). When the unit is powered-down, the excess voltage runs back through these regulators, possibly damaging them. Adding a shunt diode will prevent that possible damage. Also, some test points for all voltage supplies, up top and labelled, would reduce troubleshooting time and save Denon money on warranty repairs.
If Denon found this extremely helpful, I would very much appreciate testing/reviewing the AVR-7200W for a few years. Thanks!
It might not do anything useful if that's not the cause, but it won't hurt anything either, and my 5803 is 1 gram heavier, and a bit less likely to float away in a breeze.
Reinstall is this evening. Denon sure made it difficult to get this board out/in.
If anyone from Denon reads this: the capacitance on the output of the two 15V regulators used in most of your AVRs is much higher than manufacturer spec (10uf). When the unit is powered-down, the excess voltage runs back through these regulators, possibly damaging them. Adding a shunt diode will prevent that possible damage. Also, some test points for all voltage supplies, up top and labelled, would reduce troubleshooting time and save Denon money on warranty repairs.
If Denon found this extremely helpful, I would very much appreciate testing/reviewing the AVR-7200W for a few years. Thanks!
Hi,
I am having 2 Denon AVR-5800. One is completely dead (no front light), and one only works in stereo or pure audio (no DSP processing at all). Since none is working and the nearest Denon repair center is not here in Portland,Oregon, I decided to experiment with them (Nothing to lose anyway!)
I swapped the working standby power supply and power regulator unit from the partially working unit to the dead one. After plugging in the AC, all front red LED flashed 2-3 times then DEAD, after that the unit shows no life. I removed the standby power supply for a thorough check. All diodes, transistors, fuse IC, and power regulators (7805, 7806) are fine. On the power regulator board, the 7915 only measured ~8VDC (tested off circuit) and it got very hot within 2 seconds. I think this is the smoking gun. While I'm waiting for the replacement parts, I would like to ask for your expertise as for what causes the 7915 to fail. Was it a short circuit on the DSP board or the Amps? BTW the output transistors on the Amp are tested okay (off circuit test).
For the second receiver, I guess the DSP board is not working right. Again I wonder what is the prime suspects causing the unit to produce only stereo and pure audio output.
I appreciate your input and thank you for our time.
I am having 2 Denon AVR-5800. One is completely dead (no front light), and one only works in stereo or pure audio (no DSP processing at all). Since none is working and the nearest Denon repair center is not here in Portland,Oregon, I decided to experiment with them (Nothing to lose anyway!)
I swapped the working standby power supply and power regulator unit from the partially working unit to the dead one. After plugging in the AC, all front red LED flashed 2-3 times then DEAD, after that the unit shows no life. I removed the standby power supply for a thorough check. All diodes, transistors, fuse IC, and power regulators (7805, 7806) are fine. On the power regulator board, the 7915 only measured ~8VDC (tested off circuit) and it got very hot within 2 seconds. I think this is the smoking gun. While I'm waiting for the replacement parts, I would like to ask for your expertise as for what causes the 7915 to fail. Was it a short circuit on the DSP board or the Amps? BTW the output transistors on the Amp are tested okay (off circuit test).
For the second receiver, I guess the DSP board is not working right. Again I wonder what is the prime suspects causing the unit to produce only stereo and pure audio output.
I appreciate your input and thank you for our time.
Perhaps the problems I had aren't common among the experts to the point that no one have any idea as for what may have been the cause. Nevertheless, I've fixed both receivers. I literally had to disassemble the whole receivers into individual boards and trouble shoot them at the component level. Yes it was brutal, but well paid off. Both receivers are working perfectly fine now with the total cost of less than $10 USD in parts, but more than 48 hrs in labor. If anyone interested in trouble shooting such a complex receiver relating the the issues of no power, no sound, and/or issues related to DSP processing, you may contact me for help.
Help locating 1U-3644 Digital P.W.B in AVR5805
I am trying to fix a problem with my AVR5805. When I power up using the ON/STANDBY button, it will power up once. If I then use the ON/OFF button, the unit powers down, but then I can't power up again. I have to wait another day to try again. It seems as though there is an issue with the main CPU not being powered down properly when using the ON/OFF button. There have been times when the unit won't even power up. So I am trying to figure out how to disassemble this unit to get to the 1U-3644 Digital P.W.B. to debug and test. Obviously, this p.w.b. is buried in the unit somewhere. I think I would need to get to it from the bottom side, but I need a little guidance. A disassembly diagram or instructions would really help me here.
Thank you,
Gerald
I am trying to fix a problem with my AVR5805. When I power up using the ON/STANDBY button, it will power up once. If I then use the ON/OFF button, the unit powers down, but then I can't power up again. I have to wait another day to try again. It seems as though there is an issue with the main CPU not being powered down properly when using the ON/OFF button. There have been times when the unit won't even power up. So I am trying to figure out how to disassemble this unit to get to the 1U-3644 Digital P.W.B. to debug and test. Obviously, this p.w.b. is buried in the unit somewhere. I think I would need to get to it from the bottom side, but I need a little guidance. A disassembly diagram or instructions would really help me here.
Thank you,
Gerald